Can you lose your salvation? Let's di... (205 views) Subscribe   
  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     7/29/2003 11:45 pm  
To:  ALL   Poll (1 of 32)  
 
  670.1  
 
  Can you lose your salvation? Let's dig into the scriptures to prove our points. 
 
             
   
 
 You can not EVER lose your salvation.
4 votes (50%)  You can lose your salvation.
2 votes (25%)  You can lose your salvation but gain it back
2 votes (25%)  Maybe someone can lose their salvation, but not me.
0 votes (0%)  Who cares? I know I will never lose my salvation.
0 votes (0%)  I don't really know.
0 votes (0%)  
  
8 people voted in this poll

Your vote was You can lose your salvation. on 7/30/2003 5:59 am This poll expired 7/30/2003 11:45 pm
 
 
 
 
  
   Options  Reply  
5.0 (1 vote) 
  
    
 


  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/30/2003 4:08 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    Poll (2 of 32)  
 
  670.2 in reply to 670.1  
 
Hi: 

I voted NO! Can't earn salvation, can't lose it. Am on the run this AM but will put up scripture later in the day. 

R/C
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/30/2003 6:17 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    Poll (3 of 32)  
 
  670.3 in reply to 670.2  
 
Hi Minister Falcon,

 

 

I voted Yes, not that you can loose your salvation, you cannot loose God like you can loose your car keys, but you can Reject a personal Relationship with God and therefore loose your Redemption and along with it your Salvation.

 

Also the Bible is very clear that a Born Again Christian who has turned from God and Quenched the Holy Spirit cannot re-receive the Holy Spirit to be reunited as Hebrews 6:4  8 explains the Holy Spirit is only available as a part of one relationship with God.

 

 

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to  be burned. 

 

Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward His name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

 

Just my thoughts on this topic.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 8/1/2003 3:22:48 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     7/30/2003 8:40 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    Poll (4 of 32)  
 
  670.4 in reply to 670.3  
 
Hi David,

Can you think of reasons why anyone would reject God or neglect working out their salvation?

         

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/30/2003 8:58 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    Poll (5 of 32)  
 
  670.5 in reply to 670.4  
 
For starters because people would rather do things their way i.e. live in sin than repent and follow God.

 

In the parable of the sower Matthew 13:18-23, Jesus tells that some people will never take root into a relationship with God while others will let (1.) The cares and concerns for this world will win out with some over a relationship with God or (2.) Persecution and hardship will derail others from a relationship with God. While many others will remain and abide and bear fruit.

 

Even though there are four types of hearer of the word of God these are not four equally sized groups of people as the majority of the seed cast by the sower goes into the Prepared hearts of people.

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 7/31/2003 8:27:22 PM ET by David (DAVIDABROWN) 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/30/2003 2:47 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    Poll (6 of 32)  
 
  670.6 in reply to 670.1  
 
Okay once a person has put his faith in Christ, he is sealed in Christ. 

2 Timothy 1:12b ...."for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him until that day." 

Hebrews 12:2 'looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith..." 

Philipians 1:6 "being confident of this very thing, that he who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus." 

If I were able to keep my own salvation, I'd have surely lost it many times already. 

R/C
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  boodada   7/30/2003 6:17 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    Poll (7 of 32)  
 
  670.7 in reply to 670.3  
 
You said: 
Also the Bible is very clear that a Born Again Christian who has turned from God and Quenched the Holy Spirit cannot re-receive the Holy Spirit to be reunited as Hebrews 6:4  8 explains the Holy Spirit is only available as a part of one relationship with God. 
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 

Boodada says: 
Spiros Zodhiates suggests that this passage is an example of 
"reductio ad absurdum." Start with a false premise and reach 
absurd conclusions. 

In other words, the phrase "it is impossible" is a teaching from 
the witer that it is impossible for believers to fall away because Christ would have to be crucified again which is also impossible 

Also, what do you do with the verses in Ephesians that say we 
are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption? 

Good topic!
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/30/2003 7:27 pm  
To:  boodada   Poll (8 of 32)  
 
  670.8 in reply to 670.7  
 
Hi boodada & R/C,

 

Good Topic is Right!

 

Im glad to see that you and R/C have the same thoughts that most of my friends do and also most of my mentors have.

 

However my thought  continues to be that a relationship with God is just that a relationship that requires two parties to enter into it and two parties to remain in it.

 

Reformed teaching is that God neglected to have a relationship with the human and that is why the relationship failed, a teaching that I disagree with.

 

 I agree with the teaching that God is always available to every singe person as this is demonstrated in the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus, therefore the failed relationships are a failure on peoples part and not the result of Gods rejecting the individual that comes to the cross.

 

Maybe from time to time we can discuss it but I doubt that Im going to debate it right now.

 

Keep up the good work!

 

God Bless You,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  boodada   7/30/2003 8:34 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    Poll (9 of 32)  
 
  670.9 in reply to 670.8  
 
Tell you what 
Let's not debate and get into verse slinging 

Let's look at something in particular 

In Romans chapter 4 Paul the apostle quotes the Hebrew scriptures and says "Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness" 
[v. 3] 

What do you suppose this means for Christians?
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     7/31/2003 12:03 am  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   Poll (10 of 32)  
 
  670.10 in reply to 670.6  
 
These are wonderful scriptures R/C!

Indeed you are sealed by the Holy Spirit at the new birth experience.  

We all fall short of the glory I agree.  But here you are, an example of a Christian working out your salvation with fear and trembling.  

I always saw this scripture in Philippians 2:11 as something to reconcile ourselves within our salvation, understanding that if we don't something could happen to our salvation. 

What does that mean to you to work out your salvation with fear and trembling?  

Then in Matthew 8:12 it says that the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness.  

Who are the sons of the kingdom and why did they get cast out into outer darkness?

Then there is Matthew 7:14 which states because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. 


There are certain conditions to salvation, not just one.  What if one does not meet those conditions of salvation, then what happens to them?


 

 

         




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 7/31/2003 3:06:27 AM ET by Minister Falcon (OSMFALCON) 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/31/2003 4:30 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    Poll (11 of 32)  
 
  670.11 in reply to 670.8  
 
Hi David, 

I don't know where I fit in the denomination catergory but a Reformist I ain't..... :). 

Dave Hunt wrote an excellent book: 'What Love Is This' published by Loyal Publishing House 2002 that refutes extreme Calvinism. 

" God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." john 3:16 

And that is the good news of the gospel. 

R/C 
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   7/31/2003 4:33 am  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    Poll (12 of 32)  
 
  670.12 in reply to 670.10  
 
Hi Minister , 

I'm on my way to work but I'll get back to you in the PM on what I believe about those verses. 

R/C 
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  David (DavidABrown)    7/31/2003 6:59 pm  
To:  boodada   Poll (13 of 32)  
 
  670.13 in reply to 670.9  
 
Hi,

 

Im confident that it means that we must have Faith in God to be considerd Righteous by God.

 

The object then, is does a person of their own free will have the ability to decide not to have faith, to which I would say, yes.

 

If you would then like to quote 

 

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, least any man should boast.

 

It would not cement your position.

 

Grace and Faith are both Feminine Nouns in this verse. 
While the Pronoun That is a Neuter pronoun. 
Therefore That does not explicitly link Faith with free gift". 
The Greek gender of the modified words need to match each other.

 

PS Im also curious as to why you might think that the Apostle Paul didnt write the book of Hebrews.

 

God Bless You,
David

 

 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  boodada   7/31/2003 9:05 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    Poll (14 of 32)  
 
  670.14 in reply to 670.13  
 
You said: 
Hi 
Boodada says: 
Hi, brother David! 

You said: 
Im confident that it means that we must have Faith in God to be considerd Righteous by God. 

Boodada says: 
It's more than that, David 

What does it mean to have your faith CREDITED as righteousness 

What does Paul mean by saying righteousness is credited? 

You said: 
The object then, is does a person of their own free will have the ability to decide not to have faith, to which I would say, yes. 

Boodada says: 
Then what happens? 

You said: 
If you would then like to quote 

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, least any man should boast. 

It would not cement your position. 

Boodada says: 
Let's examine what Paul is saying 

I hope to cement it when you realize what this issue is about 

You said: 
Grace and Faith are both Feminine Nouns in this verse. 
While the Pronoun That is a Neuter pronoun. 
Therefore That does not explicitly link Faith with free gift". 
The Greek gender of the modified words need to match each other. 

Boodada says: 
I have no idea how this is relevant 

You said: 
PS Im also curious as to why you might think that the Apostle Paul didnt write the book of Hebrews. 

Boodada says: 
I'd like to think he did, but there are reasons to believe he didn't 

-Nowhere does the author identify himself, which is very unusual for Paul, not to mention he usually greets others and talks about them 
-References to the OT seem to come from the Septuagint, which would 
be unusual for Paul the Hebrew 

Why do you think he DID? 

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


Message 15 of 32 was Deleted    



  From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/1/2003 12:33 pm  
To:  boodada   Poll (16 of 32)  
 
  670.16 in reply to 670.14  
 
*Message 15 was also my post I messed it up deleted it and reposted it here.

 

Hi again,

Here are a few thoughts.

 

The author is in Prison it is a Prison Epistle (Hebrews 13:19). 
It mentions Timothy (Hebrews 13:23). 
It is probably the content that Paul taught to the Synagogues during his travels recorded in the Book of Acts (Acts 17:1,2). 
It is very advanced and very Jewish  Temple minded and knowledgeable. 
Peter references a Letter from the Apostle Paul to the Jews (2 Peter 3:15). 
Its not addressed because it is not an epistle sent by currier. Paul was in Prison in Jerusalem when He likely wrote it so it would be handed to the church at Jerusalem by the known author. 
Upon arrival at Jerusalem Paul was sent by the Church to make vows in the temple. I think Paul then determined that a letter was in order (Acts 21:20-24). 
Every subject tone and content is Pauline. 
It dovetails with Romans, Corinthians and Galatians. 
Hebrews is part of a Trilogy Written by Paul The Just shall Live by Faith. 
Romans covers What and who is Just/Justified (Romans Chapters 4-5) 
Galatians covers How to Live (Galatians Chapter 5) 
Hebrews covers Faith (Hebrews Chapter 12)
 

I have missed your other point entirely.

 

Your Brother in Jesus,
David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  boodada   8/1/2003 12:41 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    Poll (17 of 32)  
 
  670.17 in reply to 670.16  
 
Most interesting 
I'll save this to a file and get back with you soon 

That would make 14 epistles from Paul 

2 x 7 -- 7 being the perfect number 

Did you know Paul wrote to exactly 7 different churches 
in the NT? 

Just like John in Revelation 

Cool, huh?
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)   8/1/2003 4:11 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    Poll (18 of 32)  
 
  670.18 in reply to 670.10  
 
Hi Minister Falcon, 

Sorry in the delay to answering your questions. I'd written up a post this AM and it got lost in transit. 

Okay..the Matthew 8 verse. Jesus had just healed the Centurian's (probably Roman,definitely a gentile) servant. Now, remakably this Centurian called Jesus "Lord" and insisted he was not worthy to have Jesus come under his roof.for this faith Jesus said that many outside the Jewish lineage would be in the Kingdom because they recognized Jesus as Savior. By contrast the Jews did know the Holy Scriptures, did have a knowledge of God, were literal sons of David (and of his kingdom)and should have been looking for their Messiah refused to recognize Jesus as their Savior. So the sons of the kingdom lost their kinship ( "will be cast out" )of the because they denied their King. 

Matthew 7;14..... 'the Downward Road is Crowded' is what the old American Spiritual sings. "Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way." I think we see this everyday. Much of the world is quite religious/spiritual but have no personal relationship with God. In the broad sense :0) many hope their ancester ties will get them into heaven. I 've had people respond to the Gospel with.....well my Uncle is a priest, our family has a special place with God. Or,my Grandmamma was a Southern Baptist and I'm hoping she'll put in a good word for me. etc. and so on. 

Philipian 2:12...'fear and trembling..." is followed by, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Once we accept christ into our lives, He maintains us, as we cannot save ourself past, present or future. That is not to say we are to have a cavalier attitude in our walk with Jesus, we are to be Holy as He is Holy. Too often though I have seen the saints revert back to works/legalism in working out their faith. The Galatians found themselves in this position. ( Galatians 5:4) the Lord desires that we enjoy our fellowship with Him....focusing on the JOY of our salvation. 

Well, hope that helps you understand better where i stand on losing one's salvation. 

R/C 
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit  
 
From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     8/1/2003 11:09 pm  
To:  R/C Floats (RachelsChild)    
 
    
 
Amen R/C.

In reference to Matthew 8:12, I did some cross-referencing to the part of scripture that says: be cast out to outer darkness.

Matthew 24:45-51

45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 
47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 
48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' 
49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 
50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 
51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 

In this scripture it relates two servants.  

Are not both servants, believers, who serve the Master being Jesus Christ?  

=======

That's an interesting commentary you gave on Matthew 7:14, but let's look at Luke 13:24-27 which defines the people at the gate.

24 Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 
25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,' 
26 then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' 
27 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.' 

In verse 26, these people very definitely attended church sharing in the cup of the Lord in His presence and listened to His sermons.  These are believers, not relatives of believers.  Barnes Notes states:  To have eaten with one is evidence of acquaintanceship or friendship. So the sinner may allege that he was a professed follower of Jesus, and had some evidence that Jesus was his friend. There is no allusion here, however, to the sacrament. The figure is taken from the customs of people, and means simply that they had professed attachment, and perhaps supposed that Jesus was their friend. Thou didst favor us, as though thou didst love us. Thou didst not turn away from us, and we did not drive thee away. All this is alleged as proof of friendship.


The last cross reference is in Romans 11:21-25.  From 16 to 20 the scripture introduces the image of the vine with its branches.  The Vine being Jesus Christ.  The natural branches being the Jews.  And the grafted in branches being the Gentiles. We stand by faith, not in unbelief.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 


With this in mind, verse 21 tells us the natural branches were not spared, that is the Jews were not spared.

In 22, scripture indicates an IF condition, if you continue in His goodness you will remain in the Vine.  IF you don't, you will also be cut off.

Another IF condition in 23 says that if you don't continue in unbelief which we all do from time to time, you will be grafted in, for God is able to graft you in again.

And the last IF condition in 24 has to do with the Jews being reinstated.

We stand by faith and not by unbelief, yet many of us struggle with unbelief.  Can unbelief break us off the Vine as scripture states?

========

Philippians 2:12:  I also cross-referrenced this scripture.  

With fear and trembling:  Hebrews 4:1-2
1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

Verse 1 indicates that indeed, some believers may come up short  because [verse 2] they heard the word and did not apply the word with faith.  So therefore the word did not profit them in the hearing of it.  Look around you in the body of Christ, how many of the Christians you know do not apply the word of God to their life, live in unbelief, and forget about faith.  

For the phrase:  ye have always obeyed.  These are the cross referrences.

Philippians 1:5
for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, 

Philippians 1:27
Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, 

29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 

All this accounts for a relationship with obedience to Christ.  Many Christians do not have this type of relationship with Christ.  They do not listen, they do not ask, they do not fellowship with Christ, and they do not obey His commands. God does not have their whole heart, their whole mind, their whole soul.  They have not obeyed the first commandment of God.

For the phrase:  work out your, there are several cross-referrenced scriptures.  I will only use those that are understood to the subject at hand.

Proverbs 10:16
The labor of the righteous leads to life, the wages of the wicked to sin. 

Proverbs 13:4
The soul of a lazy man desires, and has nothing; but the soul of the diligent shall be made rich. 

Romans 2:7-16
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 
11 For there is no partiality with God. 
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. 

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 
25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 
26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. 

Even Paul was mindful that if he was not obedient to God, he could become disqualified.

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.

Hebrews 4:11
Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 

2 Peter 1:5-11
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 
6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 
7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 
8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 
9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 
11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 

2 Peter 3:17-18
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 
18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

There are so many scriptures that point to a possible loss of salvation if we don't continue in working out our salvation in fear in trembling.  I don't doubt dear sister that you are working out your salvation in this manner.  But there are those of us who are satisfied with just being born-again and neglecting working out their salvation in the way scripture prescribes to us.


 

 
From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    8/3/2003 11:19 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    Poll (20 of 32)  
 
  670.20 in reply to 670.8  
 
Hi David.

You said:  "Reformed teaching is that God neglected to have a relationship with the human and that is why the relationship failed, a teaching that I disagree with."

I currently attend a 'Reformed' church, and I've not come across any such teaching.  Would you please show me where you've come across such a thing?  Thanks.  

I will add:   This church is the FIRST church that I've ever been to which comes the closest to Scriptural worship and doctrine.  I have found no fault with doctrine yet, that is.  And I am not sitting back just accepting any part of what I see or hear, either.

 I have gone to soo many churches in our area, and most have gone the way of the world.  It has been a loooooong journey for me to find a place where Christians are SERIOUS about serving the Lord.  I am grateful though, that I now know about all those other churches...so I know what's out there and so I can remember to always be grateful for where God has put me.

Through God's hand, I found this place and I finally feel like I'm 'home.' The people there are ALL mature, truth-seeking, Bible-believing, obedient, worshipful, humble, faithful Christians.  [it's a small congregation...I don't see too many Christians who want to give up the world these days, so I guess that's why.  However, I've invited several people there that I know...and a couple are attending with me now.  Really, it's the first place I've ever even considered being a member. :) ]

anyway...what are you talking about?  :)

amy

_____________________________
'Trust in the Lord, with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding.'  Proverbs 3:5
 
 Institute In Basic Life Principles  
 e-Sword: Free Bible Downloads  
Delphi Forums:
[mine]:
Speaking the Truth in Love 
[other people's]:
What Are Your Sins? 
 
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit  
From:  David (DavidABrown)    8/4/2003 11:54 am  
To:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    Poll (21 of 32)  
 
  670.21 in reply to 670.20  
 
Hi Amy,

 

I grew attending Calvinistic Churches, although not quite reformed and in a way was happy to leave it and embrace the more Wesleyan doctrine.

 

It was actually while growing up and attending Church that I often felt judged, for instance Im not the greatest at scripture memorization and because of it and other reasons some of my Sunday school teachers thought that God just didnt choose me. I really decided that Gods choosing us is in His actions at the Cross and not in my actions what every they might be good or bad.

 

Many of my friends and most of my mentors were and are Calvinistic.

 

My friends and I agree on about 99% of things Christian and have learned to give each other room in this area.

 

Its always nice to hear from you and I am glad that you posted for some clarification. If you need more please let me know.

 

God Bless You,
Your Brother in Christ Jesus,

David

 

 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
www.BasicChristian.org

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    8/6/2003 9:10 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    Poll (22 of 32)  
 
  670.22 in reply to 670.21  
 
HI David,

I'm sorry those teachers made it seem as if you were not 'chosen.'  How awful.   There are those who think they 'know' God's heart, but are so far from it themselves, that they don't have a clue at all about who God really is.   I quit going to 'church' for many years myself, when I couldn't get what was going on to mesh what I was learning about God.   It's a hard place to be...but God uses it all for our good, ay?   [I am so grateful for that promise of God's:  that He will use what was meant for destruction for the good, for those who are called according to His purpose and who love Him.]

We must give each other grace, that's for certain.  Within my church, there are some who do not agree on doctrine 100%, and they allow each other room to grow in the Lord.  That's as Christ does with each of us, why should we do any less?   We agree on the most important aspects of the Christian life--salvation, eternal security, etc..  The other aspects of life are issues of further obedience, but are not necessarily 'salvation issues.'  [though they directly correlate to salvation, as all things do!]   

I remember the first time I read about Calvinism and actually read some of the doctrine used by Calvinists.  [ultra-].  I was floored.  There are so many WORDS, when the Gospel is so simple and profound in few.   We humans tend to muck up Jesus' simplicity, and miss his heart in the process.

Thanks for your post, David.  May the Lord bless and keep you this day. :)

amy

_____________________________
'Trust in the Lord, with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding.'  Proverbs 3:5
 
 Institute In Basic Life Principles  
 e-Sword: Free Bible Downloads  
Delphi Forums:
[mine]:
Speaking the Truth in Love 
[other people's]:
What Are Your Sins? 
 
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  judi (JUDITH2124)    8/6/2003 2:45 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    Poll (23 of 32)  
 
  670.23 in reply to 670.1  
 
You cannot lose what you do not have. If you consider yourself saved, you must ask yourself "saved from what"? Merely the wrath of GOD? (Which is pretty great in itself!) But let us consider...Jesus has the power over sin - isn't it possible that we are saved from having to serve sin? And wouldn't that make us want to serve our new Master -GOD? 
If we choose to profess His Name and still want to follow after Satan through our carnal desires - ie. wilfully sinning - I'd think that salvation had not truly wrought its wondrous work within our hearts. If Christ has truly saved us from our sins - then if we sin again, are we saved? 

24 And let us consider one another to 
provoke unto love and to good works: 
25 Not forsaking the assembling of 
ourselves together, as the manner of 
some is; but exhorting one another: and 
so much the more, as ye see the day 
approaching. 
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we <if we sin WILFULLY...) 
have received the knowledge of the truth, <after we KNOW the truth!> 
there remaineth no more sacrifice for 
sins, 
27 But a certain fearful looking for of 
judgment and fiery indignation, which 
shall devour the adversaries. 
28 He that despised Moses' law died 
without mercy under two or three 
witnesses: 
29 Of how much sorer punishment, 
suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, 
who hath trodden under foot the Son of <this is so incredible!> 
God, and hath counted the blood of the 
covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, 
an unholy thing, and hath done despite <why don't we think of this?> 
unto the Spirit of grace? 
30 For we know him that hath said, 
Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will 
recompense, saith the Lord. And again, 
The Lord shall judge his people. <The Lord shall JUDGE His people!> 
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the 
hands of the living God. 

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit  
 
From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     8/6/2003 5:10 pm  
To:  judi (JUDITH2124)     
 
    
 
Hi Judith,

Here are the conditions of salvation:

Matthew 3:2
and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!" 

Matthew 18:3
and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 

Matthew 19:16-21
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" 
17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." 
18  He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, " 'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 
19  'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" 
20  The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" 
21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 

Matthew 24:13
But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 

Mark 1:4
John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 

Luke 3:8
Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

Luke 14:25-33 
25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 
26 If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 
27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 
28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it-- 
29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 
30 saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.' 
31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 
32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 
33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple. 


Luke 18:18-26
18 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 
19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 
20 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother.'" 
21  And he said, "All these I have kept from my youth."
22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 
23  But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful, for he was very rich. 
24 And when Jesus saw that he became very sorrowful, He said, "How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God! 
25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 
26  And those who heard it said, "Who then can be saved?" 

John 3:3-12
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 
4  Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit." 
9  Nicodemus answered and said to Him, "How can these things be?" 
10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 
11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 
12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 

John 3:14-18
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 
15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 

John 5:24
 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 

John 6:28-29
28  Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." 

John 6:47
 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 

John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 
26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" 

John 20:31
but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. 

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 3:19
Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 

Acts 3:23
 'And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' 

===

The conditions are many, even though people profess there is only one way and that is to believe only.  Satan believes, yet he is not saved, nor will he ever be saved except for damnation and hellfire. 

Jesus didn't just say, just believe, He said more than that.  There are expressed conditions for salvation as listed in the scriptures above. Not meeting these conditions, brings failure.

===========

It is not that one is saved FROM something as much as it is that one is saved FOR something, that is eternal life with Christ, Jesus.  

=========

Your comment: 
26 For if we sin willfully after that we <if we sin WILLFULLY...) 
have received the knowledge of the truth, <after we KNOW the truth!> there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 


This is the condition of a lost salvation.  There are those who are downright willful to rebel again the teachings and knowledge of the Truth. The truth being that Jesus Christ is Savior, the Holy Spirit empowers, the Father is who He is, all the gifts in operation, all the graces being enjoyed, and the like....this is one who has had this experience and has tossed it away.  Why?  Crazy reasons often are the answer to 'why.'  Anger over a lost relative, bad leadership, poor treatment by other believers, rejection of some sort, and the list goes on.  One of the most profound examples I have found are those who once were in the occult, left it and then went back to it.  They are lost to God.  Those that are fornicators [as well as homosexuals/lesbians] and adulterers which are sins unto death all have been lost to God, unless repentance is stated and meant.  Without repentance, one is hopeless for any redemption.

And since Jesus died but once and no longer is there another sacrifice to apply to our sins, one has lost their salvation.  The rest of your scripture references and commentary is apt and I am in total agreement with it.  OSAS is not possible in view of this cited scripture alone.  

         

 
From:  inhiskingdom   8/24/2003 5:04 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    Poll (25 of 32)  
 
  670.25 in reply to 670.3  
 
Hi. 
Good response. I agree. 

In His Love 
Norb
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  LenBenHEAR/LIFE_or_death:SEE: John 3:36 (franknsense)   8/29/2003 11:18 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    Poll (26 of 32)  
 
  670.26 in reply to 670.21  
 
Hi David. Just to lighten things up a tiny tad: 
The best response I ever heard to the Calvinism VS Arminianism 

and GOD'S WILL VS man's little free will controversy 

was a line taken from Isaac B. Singer's 

marvelously human yiddish collections, to wit: 

"We MUST believe in freewill! We have no choice!" 

=================================================== 

:^) 


TWO HIGHLY RECOMMENDED BOOKS for those who are wondering or considering the validity of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord: THE CASE FOR CHRIST, and THE CASE FOR FAITH, - both by journalist, legal expert, and author, Lee Strobel. - both of these books are a very, very worthwhile read. 
"If you have not [and show not] (Divine) Love... all the rest profits you exactly NOTHING." - I Corinthians 13.

*LenBenHear/FranknSense/Romans 8:14 + John 3:8*

---> Isaiah 41:10-13 *Psalm 94:1-16, 21-23.* <---


VINCIT OMNIA VERITAS

* Truth Triumphs Over All *

(Always "speak the Truth in Love)...[see Profile] 

* There is a time for mercy...and a time for Judgement. * - (which one you get depends upon your honesty and humility before GOD)


 
NOTHING YOU AND I CAN OR WILL EVER DO can substitute for the mercy and grace found in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ, The Lamb of God. * HE IS The ONLY Way to forgiveness and reconciliation with GOD. WITHOUT THE BLOOD ATONEMENT THERE IS NO REMISSION OF THE ETERNAL CONSEQUENCES OF SIN. ---> The ETERNAL consequences of sin. 

* GOD IS SEARCHING EVERY HEART AND THEIR (actual) RELATIONSHIP TO HIS SON AND ETERNAL WORD! * * He is looking for REALITY: not pretense! * 

*from the heart.*


It all has to do with *fruit* and destiny.---> YOUR choices. Choose Him: choose Life. HE IS GOD's Way to mercy, grace, and forgiveness... and TRANSFORMATION! * Be sure you answer when GOD comes knocking at the door of your heart! * 

==================================  
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  LenBenHEAR/LIFE_or_death:SEE: John 3:36 (franknsense)   8/29/2003 11:27 pm  
To:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)    Poll (27 of 32)  
 
  670.27 in reply to 670.22  
 
yes. those who are truly converted and ARE HIS 
are held in His strong right hand of Love. 

but I am one who also strongly believes in warning 

and exhorting everyone (from time to time) that WE MUST 

HAVE FRUIT that PROVES our conversion and salvation and 

our profession. 

Preachers and teachers MUST warn about *false* repentance 

(which is ordinarily little more than self-pity) and *false* 

conversion. 

Many of today's churches are full of false converts. 

it's actually very sad and dreadful. 

------------------------------------- 

www.livingwaters.com/pastor.shtml 

------------------------------------- 

all the best 
and God bless. 

Len 


"If you have not [and show not] (Divine) Love... all the rest profits you exactly NOTHING." - I Corinthians 13.

*LenBenHear/FranknSense/Romans 8:14 + John 3:8*

---> Isaiah 41:10-13 *Psalm 94:1-16, 21-23.* <---


VINCIT OMNIA VERITAS

* Truth Triumphs Over All *

(Always "speak the Truth in Love)...[see Profile] 

* There is a time for mercy...and a time for Judgement. * - (which one you get depends upon your honesty and humility before GOD)


and JESUS said, "I AM The Way, The Truth, and The [Eternal} Life [of GOD], *no one* shall be reconciled back to The Father except by Me." - "I AM the door..." - and you walk thru that door *on your knees.* For you see, The Way is: Repentance, Forgiveness, Transformation, and to walk in the Light as He is in the Light: to walk in the Light of His Love and Truth. * 

* There IS no other way. * 



WHAT IS HAPPENING?---> *Matthew 24:10-14* *Luke 21:22, 31-36* ~ II Timothy 3:1-9, plus verses 12-15. * HEBREWS 12:25-29 * 
- and THAT is what's happening. *FOR REAL* 

THE FINAL SIFTING IS IN FULL-THROTTLE!


* DO YOU HAVE AN ADVOCATE TO STAND BY YOUR SIDE THERE?


Ephesians 6:24: Grace be with all those that love our Lord Jesus Christ *in sincerity.* Amen.
Yes: IN SINCERITY, IN TRUTH AND REALITY!




JESUS: He Is The Ultimate Answer to every Ultimate Need and Question. - HE IS The Lord GOD and Savior: Mercy, Grace, ~ Truth and Salvation IS FOR THOSE WHO RECEIVE HIM...IN TRUTH and *from the heart.*


It all has to do with *fruit* and destiny.---> YOUR choices. Choose Him: choose Life. HE IS GOD's Way to mercy, grace, and forgiveness... and TRANSFORMATION! * Be sure you answer when GOD comes knocking at the door of your heart! * 

==================================  
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Christ, our Hope (amym38)     8/30/2003 9:10 am  
To:  LenBenHEAR/LIFE_or_death:SEE: John 3:36 (franknsense)   Poll (28 of 32)  
 
  670.28 in reply to 670.27  
 
You're so right.  We should never be complacent in our salvation.  We should work out our own salvation 'with fear and trembling.'    

Good posts, Len.

amy

_____________________________
'Trust in the Lord, with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding.'  Proverbs 3:5
 
 Institute In Basic Life Principles  
 e-Sword: Free Bible Downloads  
Delphi Forums:
[mine]:
Speaking the Truth in Love 
[other people's]:
What Are Your Sins? 
 
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Franksharing    9/12/2003 12:18 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    Poll (29 of 32)  
 
  670.29 in reply to 670.1  
 
To my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus :)

As long as we are living in this world of sin, we will continue to have to make choices. Even when we have received a new heart we still have to make choices for who we shall serve.

Adam and Eve both had what we call the new heart to know and serve God but that did not protect them form the deceptions of the devil.

Even Jesus had to deal with temptation, but He did not fall! 

May we all look to Jesus for our example and our hope and faith in Salvation through His blood! Amen

Heb 4:14-16
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
KJV

God bless you in your Studies of His Word, for it is reading Gods Word that helps your faith grow strong!

Your brother
Frank

May our prayer be:

"Oh, my best Friend, my Maker, my Lord, shape me and mold me into Thy divine likeness. Make me entirely like Thyself. Refine, purify, quicken me, that I may represent the character of God."

A nice on line Bible study http://www.discoveronline.org/schools/222 
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     9/18/2003 11:12 am  
To:  Franksharing    Poll (30 of 32)  
 
  670.30 in reply to 670.29  
 
Amen Frank, I totatly agree with your ideas.  AMEN!
         

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


  From:  SahaganBeta   9/18/2003 12:57 pm  
To:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)    Poll (31 of 32)  
 
  670.31 in reply to 670.30  
 
Hi Minister Falcon; 
I've reviewed this thread, enjoying it, but not reading everything comprehensively....and I begin to wonder if it can be revived. 

With your permission, I'd like to make a couple of points, and see if anyone finds them interesting in the least. 

1) The first point regards the most important scriptural passage in the OSAS camp's arsenal. It is John chapter 10, verse 28, which says, "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, NEITHER SHALL ANY MAN PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND." 

Verse 29 repeats for emphasis, "....and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." Of course, though not germaine to this discussion, Jesus is here equating HIS hand, with His FATHER'S hand, then goes on to say "I and my Father are one", which is of course, touching upon another subject altogether, the trinity. 

In any biblical issue, it is of great importance that EVERY WORD SAID IN GOD'S WORD, REGARDING THAT SUBJECT be reconciled in our doctrine and in our understanding. 

So, how do we reconcile the above verses from John chapter ten, with the several dozen that indicate one CAN lose one's salvation? 

Well, first, let's see what the verse says. It says that no man, and that means anywhere, anywhen, anyhow, can remove anyone placed in God's hand. 

What then, does the verse NOT say? It doesn't say, for instance, that any WOMAN cannot remove a man placed in God's hand. But here, we can take it for granted that a woman can remove a person from God's hand no more readily nor easily than a man can. In short, she can't. 

But another thing the passage does NOT say, is that a man cannot remove HIMSELF from God's hand. This has been the usual response from the conditional security bunch, to this passage. 

But we need something more, if we're to reconcile this verse in this way. We need scripture that tells us of a man, or men, who did indeed, remove themselves from God's hand. If done once, it is of course, possible to do it again. 

And that is easily done....the verse in hand is Hebrews 8:9, wherein God is speaking of the children of Israel, who HE TOOK BY THE HAND and led out of Egypt, and their subsequent withdrawal from His hand, "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND to lead them out of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord." 

How does one take one by the hand? By his own hand of course! God took the entire nation of Israel by the hand, placing them in effect and if fact in HIS OWN HAND, and they, by refusing to meet their part of the covenant, withdrew themselves from His hand. All they had to do, was to continue to remain in God's hand, and their deliverance, their very salvation, was assured. 

The same holds true today. All we have to do, is to CONTINUE in our part of the new covenant with God, and we will remain untroubled in God's hand. However, if we do not continue (and remember how many verses saying one can lose his salvation, admonish us to CONTINUE in the faith?), it is we, no man, nor even God, but we who withdraw from the hand of the Saviour. 

Finally, one of the most difficult of passages for the adherents of OSAS to counter, is Hebrews 6:4-6. And in the principle I noted above, it is necessary to reconcile this passage with all others in order to come to truth on the matter. And please note that I said 'reconcile', not explain away, or alter, or diminish, or even ignore....That passage goes, "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come....If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." 

That we're speaking of the saved here, is beyond all dispute. The lost haven't been enlightened, nor have they tasted of the heavenly gift, they certainly have not been partakers of the Holy Ghost, nor of the powers of the world to come. The author here has gone to great length to set that question to rest in an altogether unequivocal manner. 

But here is the question. How are we saved? Is it by happenstance? By random drawing? By election or popularity? No....we're saved through a deliberate act of our will. After we've heard the gospel, weighed the cost, and made up our mind that salvation is preferred to damnation, we choose Christ, BY A DELIBERATE ACT OF OUR WILL. 

For those who are saved, I believe it possible that to become lost again requires just the same kind of deliberate act of will on our part, that was required for our salvation in the first place. Only this time, we have again weighed the costs, have determined that we disavow God, that we no longer wish to spend eternity in His presence, and therefore, withdraw ourselves from any kind of relationship with Him. 

Put another way, it seems to me that those who run afoul of Hebrews 6:4-6, have done so by a deliberate act of the will, with malice aforethought, and have thus, blasphemed the Holy Ghost, for which there is no repentance. 

What do you think? 

God bless you. I am and remain sincerely yours in Jesus Christ, 

Sahagan, fully qualified....to be least among you
 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit   
Rate 
  
    
 


   From:  Minister Falcon (OSMFalcon)     9/18/2003 7:10 pm  
To:  SahaganBeta   Poll (32 of 32)  
 
  670.32 in reply to 670.31  
 
Aptly said!  Thank you for your commentary, it rings true indeed! 
         

 
  
   Options  Reply Delete Edit  
 
